Jesurgislac’s Journal

January 2, 2011

Invitation to a prolife Pterodactyl to debate basic human rights

Filed under: Pro-life — jesurgislac @ 10:41 am
Tags: , ,

As MTV’s recent documentary on abortion demonstrated, “abortion is common despite the silence around it, it’s not an easy decision, it’s extremely safe, and most women who do it really think long and hard about their decisions”.

In a recent debate on a prolife site, a prolifer who had previously made clear they support human rights regardless of sexual orientation, came out solidly against human rights regardless of gender, arguing that a “subset of humanity” (that is, each individual pregnant woman) ought not to be allowed to be the only people allowed to make decisions about abortion.
My position never changed from the statement I made early-on in the debate:

I think it’s even simpler than trying to mess around with definitions about “potential humans”, etc.

A woman is a human being. No one has a right to use her body against her will. Not even to keep another human being alive.

All prolife legislation and ethics rest on the idea that a woman isn’t really human: she’s just an incubator that can be used without her consent to make a fertilized egg into a baby, regardless of what damage this does to her. This dehumanization of women is what is profoundly wrong with the prolife ethos.

During the discussion, Pterodactyl asserted: “It is not interesting to you to know how a person can be queer, a defender of life at its incarnation and a religious rebel.”

I offered to provide a post where Pterodactyl could, if desired, defend the division between human rights for pregnant woman (not permitted by prolifers) and human rights for LGBT people (most prolifers are against this, too, simply because prolife is generally a religious/anti-human rights movement, though I’ve encountered prolifers who were surprisingly gungho about equal rights for gay men and almost-equal rights for lesbians).

To begin, then: here are the basic human rights violated by the prolife belief that the state, not the individual pregnant woman, has the right to decide if a woman shall terminate or continue a pregnancy.

The big one that prolifers violate by their belief women ought not to be allowed to decide whether to terminate or continue is of course Article One, but there are 11 other Articles in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that prolife beliefs oppose.

Nowhere in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is there found any Article that prolifers claim is a human right for fetuses only: the right to make use of someone else’s body against her will in order to stay alive.

1. All human beings are born free

Therefore, none should be used against their will.

and equal in dignity and rights.

Therefore, no human should be treated as legally unequal, as a mere collection of organs to be used to save those superior to them.

They are endowed with reason and conscience

Abortion is a reasoned decision that belongs to each woman’s conscience: prolifers deny the right of a woman to her own conscience and her own reason.

and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

It is not “the spirit of brotherhood” or “sisterhood”, to argue that a woman exists to be used against her will, without regard for her health or her life or her wellbeing.

2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Men do not have the right to rule that a woman shall not have the basic human rights in the Declaration: no country has a right to rule that its women citizens do not have the basic human rights.

3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Women’s right to life is shredded by prolifers: women’s liberty is violated: and women’s security of person is utterly denied.

4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Prolifers argue that women can and should be forced to provide, unpaid and unrewarded, nine months of labor against their will: as slaveowners used to breed the slaves they owned.

5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Amnesty International and other human rights organizations agree: forced pregnancy is torture: is cruel, inhuman, degrading punishment. The prolife opposition to women who get illegal abortions getting healthcare after their abortion is further cruelty: further inhuman punishment.

6. Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Everyone. Including pregnant women.

7. All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Everyone. Including pregnant women.

9. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

So a woman who is suspected by the state of seeking an illegal abortion may not be arrested or detained or denied re-entry to her own country after returning from an abortion legal in another country.

12. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

The state isn’t allowed – as prolifers wish – to investigate a woman’s privacy, to force her to add to her family, to interfere with her home, nor to decry her honor or her reputation because she chooses to have an abortion.

13 (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

This is the article that saves women in Ireland from forced pregnancy or illegal abortion: when Irish prolifers wanted to force a raped child through pregnancy and childbirth (she had been made pregnant by repeated rapes by her father and her uncles) in 1993, the courts stepped in and required the state to permit her to leave Ireland for the usual outsourced abortion in the UK. Other underage rape victims in the EU have been protected the same way, contrary to active prolife opposition. (Prolifers side with rapists a lot, Ptero: somehow this doesn’t induce me to think they “love” women.)

18. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Prolifers who justify their opposition to abortion by religion can practice their own religion all they like: they can’t enforce its dictats on others.

19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Prolifers who try to enforce a gag rule on medical staff, preventing them from advising women about accessing contraception and/or abortion, are attempting to violate Article 19.

10 Comments »

  1. Good article. We’re having a mini debate right now on my blog about abortion, well really just a anti-choice troll and a few other commenters, but feel free to leave your two cents. ;)

    Comment by The Arbourist — January 2, 2011 @ 9:32 pm | Reply

  2. “it’s extremely safe”

    Uh, except for the unborn, who are living human beings — http://tinyurl.com/yzjq4lv

    Oh, and it isn’t that safe. You just don’t hear about the injuries and deaths in the mainstream media — http://realchoice.blogspot.com/

    XOXO,
    The anti-choice troll

    (BTW, I don’t mind being called anti-choice, provided that you finish the sentence: “Anti-choice to crush and dismember innocent human beings.”)

    Comment by Neil — January 5, 2011 @ 10:31 pm | Reply

    • Neil: Uh, except for the unborn, who are living human beings

      Prolifers always mention this. Somehow it never seems to occur to them that pregnant women are living human beings, each one unique and deserving of value.

      Oh, and it isn’t that safe. You just don’t hear about the injuries and deaths in the mainstream media —

      Yes, you do – insofar as it’s compatible with medical privacy. The difficulty for prolifers is that the vast majority of early abortions are carried out at virtually no rsk to the pregnant woman. Late abortions are riskier – but in general, the later an abortion, the more likely it’s being performed either because prolife legislation or regulations have ensured that a woman must delay her abortion, or because the abortion needs to be performed for health reasons. Prolifers just have very little to work with when trying to talk up the dangers and risks of abortion, just because it’s so safe when performed by a qualified practicioner and with antibiotics, so they have two choices; they lie, or they claim that the media lies. Prolifers are dishonest because reality has a prochoice bias…

      BTW, I don’t mind being called anti-choice

      I’m fine with calling people what they want to be called. I don’t have a problem identifying prolifers by the ironic name they chose for themselves, though I do like to make clear how ironic a name “prolife” is for a terrorist movement that promotes death for women, doesn’t do a damn thing to prevent abortions, kills doctors and clinic staff, and shows zero concern for the welfare of pregnant women – which is the only ethical way anyone but the pregnant woman herself can promote the welfare of the fetus she’s carrying.

      But if you want to be referred to as “Neil, the anti-choice troll” I shall be happy to do so. Everyone understands that “anti-choice” means “promotes slavery and abuse for women”, so I see no reason to extend it.

      Comment by jesurgislac — January 6, 2011 @ 12:39 am | Reply

  3. “Prolifers always mention this. Somehow it never seems to occur to them that pregnant women are living human beings, each one unique and deserving of value.”

    Actually, that does occur to me. If someone tries to crush and dismember them I’ll oppose that as well.

    Oh, and I have donated literally tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours to help these women, so I’m pretty familiar with their circumstances.

    “kills doctors and clinic staff”

    If you were intellectually honest you’d note that every pro-life organization opposes those nuts.

    “shows zero concern for the welfare of pregnant women”

    That is a lie. You should do more research on crisis pregnancy centers — http://tinyurl.com/2bv5k4m . Call one up and take a visit.

    And btw, if you are really pro-choice and not pro-abortion then you should show the same care with your time and money for the women who keep their children. And I’m not talking about taxing your neighbors, I’m talking about opening your own wallet. How much do you personally donate to help these women?

    “Everyone understands that “anti-choice” means “promotes slavery and abuse for women”, so I see no reason to extend it.”

    Uh, yeah, “everyone” . . . on pro-abort blogs. I love-love-love debating people like you in front of the middle grounders. Comments like yours are like pro-abort concession speeches.

    Comment by Neil — January 6, 2011 @ 12:49 am | Reply

  4. Re. the “anti-women” meme, virtually all gender selection abortions destroy females for the sole reason that they are female. The imbalances in India and China are in the tens of millions. It is the ultimate misogyny, and it happens with your blessing.

    Look into the stats for coerced abortions. I’ve met many guys coming into the crisis pregnancy center who were pushing their girlfriends to have abortions.

    Comment by Neil — January 6, 2011 @ 1:03 am | Reply

  5. “Prolifers who justify their opposition to abortion by religion can practice their own religion all they like: they can’t enforce its dictats on others.”

    So do you protest the pro-choice “Christians” who insist that God is OK with abortion? Seems like you would if you were really consistent. After all, they are trying to force their deadly religious views on others, including the unborn. My guess is that you, like most pro-aborts, just play the religion card when it benefits you.

    Hey, my religion opposes stealing from atheists and killing them. Do I have to vote the opposite of that in the public square as well?

    Comment by Neil — January 6, 2011 @ 1:14 am | Reply


  6. Oh, and I have donated literally tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours to help these women, so I’m pretty familiar with their circumstances.

    Oh big talk from a kid! Son, when you’re grown-up, you’ll understand when you gave your allowance (which I’m sure feels like “thousands of dollars” to you!) to a prolife charity, you were mainly enriching the handful of prolife profiteers. When you spent “countless hours” doing whatever a teenage kid does for the prolife movement, you were hurting women more than a boy can probably rightly understand.

    you’d note that every pro-life organization opposes those nuts.

    Find me a prolife organization in the US – just one – that, once a prolife terrorist had murdered Doctor George Tiller, finally acknowledged that their own campaigns of vilification and lies had lent support to his attackers and above all to the man who finally killed him: or even acknowledged that what Doctor Tiller had done was a necessary and courageous service to women in dire need who could literally find no one else to help them. I doubt you’ll find a single one: prolifers were absolutely consistent in continuing to push the attacks on Doctor Tiller even after one of their own murdered him. That’s just one extreme example. Prolifers also routinely support the routine harassment and bullying of clinic staff and patients by so-called “sidewalk counsellors” – in fact ugly bullies who remind staff and patients, continuously, that the threat of prolife terrorism is still with us.

    You should do more research on crisis pregnancy centers

    Thanks, I’ve done way more research than prolifers care for about crisis pregnancy centers. They are primarily a front for the highly-profitable adoption industry, and they do nothing to support the women who go there thinking they’re actual health centers: staffed by unqualified bullies who like to sit in a warm room instead of on a cold sidewalk, and harass women who were conned into thinking they’d actually get neutral medical/health advice instead of lies. Notably, although the key thing about crisis pregnancy centers is that the staff vituperatively oppose abortion, CPC are singularly unwilling to actually make public on the streetfront that they don’t perform abortions. Prolifers are basically dishonest in all their enterprises.

    I love-love-love debating people like you in front of the middle grounders.

    What, you enjoy being soundly thrashed (verbally, of course) and having your ignorance shown up and your lies exposed? You love-love-love being a public loser?

    Re. the “anti-women” meme, virtually all gender selection abortions destroy females for the sole reason that they are female. The imbalances in India and China are in the tens of millions

    Absolutely – and you won’t find a single prochoicer defending coerced abortion any more than we defend coerced pregnancy. The problem is that prolifers really don’t seem to have the intellectual capacity to comprehend that the key point is human rights for women – the right to decide how many children to have, and when, which of course includes the right to decide when or if to terminate a pregnancy. Prolifers are a key part in the systematic devaluation of women which had led to cultures that abort fetuses identified as female, and are a basic part of the cultural mindset that believes women’s bodies exist to be used without regard for their own will or consent. Prolifers are far closer to the people in China or India or elsewhere who force the use of women’s bodies, than any prochoicer is or could be.

    I’ve met many guys coming into the crisis pregnancy center who were pushing their girlfriends to have abortions.

    I’m sure you have, and I’m sure you’re good buddies with many more, since they, like you, believe they have the right to coerce a woman against her will.

    So do you protest the pro-choice “Christians” who insist that God is OK with abortion? Seems like you would if you were really consistent. After all, they are trying to force their deadly religious views on others,

    Oh dear, I’m being tolerant because you’re obviously just a kid, but that really is one of the stupidest things I’ve read in quite a while. Son, a person who identifies as pro-choice, whatever their own personal views on abortion, is not trying to “force their views” on anyone: they’re explicitly identifying themselves as against forcing their views. Think about it for a while, kid: the difference between a person saying “Hey, I’m a Catholic, and here’s what I believe” and Catholicism made law of the land so that it’s illegal not to go to Mass, or women getting ten-year jail sentences for having abortions (or, as in Ireland, the government simply outsourcing abortions to the UK).

    Comment by jesurgislac — January 6, 2011 @ 3:03 am | Reply

  7. “you were mainly enriching the handful of prolife profiteers. ”

    LOL. Yeah, the directors who could be making 3x as much working in industry are just in it for the $$. And the dozens of volunteers are getting rich, too.

    Now how about sharing with us all that you do for the women who decide to keep their babies? I mean, you care so much about them and their choices. What do you do with your time and money to help? And are you part of the 99% white groups who help destroy the 76% black groups? http://tinyurl.com/25gllvf

    “Find me a prolife organization in the US – just one – that, once a prolife terrorist had murdered Doctor George Tiller, finally acknowledged that their own campaigns of vilification and lies had lent support to his attackers and above all to the man who finally killed him”

    Cute. Using that logic AA an MADD are responsible every time a drunk gets beaten up.

    “They are primarily a front for the highly-profitable adoption industry, and they do nothing to support the women who go there thinking they’re actual health centers: staffed by unqualified bullies who like to sit in a warm room instead of on a cold sidewalk, and harass women who were conned into thinking they’d actually get neutral medical/health advice instead of lies. Notably, although the key thing about crisis pregnancy centers is that the staff vituperatively oppose abortion, CPC are singularly unwilling to actually make public on the streetfront that they don’t perform abortions. Prolifers are basically dishonest in all their enterprises.”

    You are a liar. A despicable liar. I know CPCs inside and out. I’ve volunteered at them for years and have been on the board of directors of one for years and have worked with national groups, so I know for a fact what a liar you are. Silly me, expecting honesty from someone who thinks it is a moral good to crush and dismember innocent human beings.

    You are a liar. You know it, and I know it. Lie all you like her, but deep down remember that we both know what a liar you are.

    “Prolifers are a key part in the systematic devaluation of women which had led to cultures that abort fetuses identified as female”

    You are a liar and a comedian. You are trying to say that abortion is morally necessary and doesn’t kill a human being. So how could it be wrong to kill a human fetus “identified as female?” Since “it” isn’t a person, how can it possibly be bad to kill “it?” Cognitive dissonance, you’re doing it right.

    Re. religion: Gotcha, thanks! As I suspected, you are another anti-religion bigot, but only religion you disagree with. If “Christian” pro-aborts try to influence public policy you have no problem with that. Which is another way of saying you are a lying hypocrite.

    How about giving honest answers to these two questions:

    1. Tell me how much of YOUR time and money you donate to help women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. Cause you’re all about choice and helping those women, right? My prediction: Zero.

    2. Tell me what you do to prevent the huge % of coerced abortions (grandparents pressuring their children to abort their grandchildren and guys pressuring girls to abort). My prediction: Zero.

    Comment by Neil — January 6, 2011 @ 5:04 am | Reply

  8. Oh, and if you want to back up your silly claim about how rich pro-lifers get with the movement, show some stats on what a clinic director makes compared to the abortionists. Abortion is a huge business. People like Bernard Nathanson (abortionist turned pro-lifer) admitted what a scam the whole thing was — exaggerated statistics, emotional ploys to sway women, etc. Tools like you drink the kool-aid without thinking.

    Comment by Neil — January 6, 2011 @ 5:16 am | Reply

  9. Neil, has it ever occurred to you to ask who gets the adoption fees (and how much they are) when a woman who’s come into a crisis pregnancy center expecting help, instead got funneled into a system where she lost her baby to adoptive parents?

    Did it ever occur to you to ask why, if the mother keeps her baby, the crisis pregnancy centers aren’t providing support to single mothers and children growing up in poverty? How many teenage kids – aside from deluded volunteers like you! – do you see around these CPCs? (You’ll find some illuminating information here.) Providing care to a mother and her children, ensuring that deciding to have the baby means no loss of education or income, would be a long-term, expensive role to take in the life of a family – and it’s not something CPC do. At all.

    You are a liar. A despicable liar. I know CPCs inside and out. I’ve volunteered at them for years and have been on the board of directors of one for years and have worked with national groups, so I know for a fact what a liar you are.

    Mmm-hmmm. You tell me: what happens after a baby’s born? There’s 18 years of the baby’s childhood: there’s the US’s despicable lack of mandatory paid maternity leave. What nursery schools do CPCs run? Do the CPCs you’ve volunteered for run free daycare centers for all the working mothers in the neighborhood, with qualified, well-paid childminders? What free afterschool activities do these CPCs provide for schoolage kids? What no-strings financial support do they offer to women who lose their jobs as a result of having a baby? What jobfinding workshops do they run? What union work do they support, for better working conditions? What pro-breastfeeding campaigns do they run? What, exactly, are you claiming CPCs do to support women who’ve decided to have a baby despite the fact they can’t really afford to do that at the time when they got pregnant?

    I can tell you, because I’ve done the research. CPCs do none of these things. They try to funnel low-income mothers into the adoption industry and they may provide babyfood and diapers – not of course a full supply for the next two years (hm, a free collection/return diaper laundry service would be aong the useful things they COULD do and don’t….)

    If “Christian” pro-aborts try to influence public policy you have no problem with that.

    Gotcha! You really aren’t very literate or very smart, are you? I’m not pro-abortion – as you’d know if you were literate and smart enough to read what I actually write instead of responding to the little voices in your head. I have a major problem with any “pro-abort” who tries to influence policy – for example the moronic Men’s Rights Activists who want to make it optional for a man to be obliged to pay child support if he’s offered to pay for an abortion instead. Some of those MRAs probably identify as “Christian”. That’s really not my problem.

    Tell me how much of YOUR time and money you donate to help women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. Cause you’re all about choice and helping those women, right?

    Obviously, I actively support and vote for provision of universal services for ALL women – paid for by taxes, available to everyone. I also actively support and campaign against taxdodging freeloaders.

    On an individual level, I babysit for free for single mothers who want an evening out.

    Tell me what you do to prevent the huge % of coerced abortions (grandparents pressuring their children to abort their grandchildren and guys pressuring girls to abort).

    And what do you do on those lines, Neil? Do you campaign and vote for government-funded, universal financial and educational support for teenage girls so that they have a free choice about terminating or continuing their pregnancy? I do. I bet you don’t. Do you actively support legislation that gives every teenage girl the absolute right to medical privacy when she consults her doctor, so that she can talk freely and decide for herself without her parents interfering? I bet you don’t. Do you campaign against “parental notification” laws, intended to make it easier for parents to interfere with their daughter’s decisions? I bet you don’t do that either! In fact, I bet you love parental notification laws because you love parents coercing their daughters – providing they’re coercing them down the chute to have a baby.

    Like you, obviously, I argue with anyone who tries to coerce someone else to have an abortion when they don’t want to. Unlike you, I also argue with anyone who tries to coerce someone else to have a baby when they don’t want to. Also unlike you, I campaign for and actively support all sorts of societal and legislative changes to ensure that women are not coerced: that they have a free choice to do what they feel is the right thing for them.

    Oh, and if you want to back up your silly claim about how rich pro-lifers get with the movement

    Oh, it would certainly be silly to claim that most prolifers get rich from the adoption industry – which really is big business, unlike the foolish lies prolifers tell about women’s health clinics being highly profitable. Most prolifers are just like you – deluded teenage kids who talk up the “work” they do and like to think – because they’re ignorant – that they’re being helpful. A small minority of adults know better but are operating in bad faith – they don’t want to know the truth because for them it’s too much fun being morally outraged at the idea of women being sexually active and having reproductive freedom. Some of this small minority are outright racists and white supremacists, supporting the “demographic winter” nonsense in a world of seven billion people.

    But yes; If you go look it up, adoption is big bucks. You don’t get much of that money: the women who give birth don’t get any of it: but adoption agencies, particularly those with a close link to CPCs that provide them with a nice supply of healthy white babies, are making lots of money.

    Comment by jesurgislac — January 6, 2011 @ 11:47 am | Reply


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